7/30/08:Mark Krikorian

" A -- police officer shoots a man who was driving his car item ram in the car into -- and immediately the outcry occurs he must've shot this poor innocent victim because he was an immigrant who turns out that not only was the driver of the car a criminal immigrant. He was also facing charges next week for threatening to commit murder was careening down mysteries of the arm of the 80s90 miles an hour with his two young children in the backseat it was literally smoking a joint while he was driving when the shot was fired. And it somehow the first approach of the Boston Globe Democrat the -- media was the people enforcing the law. Are responsible this man's death because the only reason he was fleeing the cops. Was because of evil immigration enforcement how did those of us who support the same law that virtually every other country the world as witches. If you here legally you have to -- how do we become the bad guys that we become the -- de facto murderers. Of this Kremlin could also by the way didn't have a driver's license. Because his driving record in New York was so bad he couldn't get one -- Massachusetts how do we get held responsible for the hit for his fate. That's one of the many many questions I want to ask our guests today Mark Kerkorian our good friend from the center for immigration studies. His new book is called the new case against immigration both legal and illegal we'll get to that provocative title of the moment first to mark welcome back 969 -- taken. It how how did -- people who want just normal old border security become the evil murderers of these innocent victims who have snuck into our country."

" This happens all the time and basically it reflects a view that. Immigration law. And even for more broadly American sovereignty. Is simply illegitimate it's immoral mean that's what underlies. This point of view. And I I think I think were actually make him a little progress against that kind of thing but it's still comes up all the time not only in this dormant case but. In Iowa -- your listeners remembers several months ago raid. On this unbelievably. -- ten million meatpacking plant they were high you know employing fifteen year old in overtime. People were getting cut up the whole thing. And -- Barack Obama among other people refers to the immigration agents. Breaking up this absurd situation as somehow terrorizing. These illegal aliens really is kind of an upside down view of the world."

" It truly is I don't understand is there's no other arena of law enforcement I know love. Where someone's hey you broke up a joy agreeing why -- obscure -- dealers pay you broke a good job that appeal hearing leave those -- guys alone they're just lonely when it comes to crumble immigration there really is -- attitude particularly among political leads -- media elites that there's something wrong with. Having a sovereign border that you used the rule of law to defend."

" And you know what they're really saying here if there's something wrong. We -- the people and the law because you know this is legislation that's been passed by our elected officials. And survey after survey shows is broadly supported by the public so what. These folks are saying he -- the American people are immoral that you're really what they --"

" Absolutely and I I don't honest and you eat that that the book is called the new case against immigration both legal and illegal by Michael Mark Kerkorian at the center for immigration studies. You're familiar somewhat with immigration law around the world. Are there any countries that have -- show up live here we don't care who you or do what you want. To foreign nationals are or are at in this policy that Senator Obama and John and John McCain want of everybody gets to come is that. Practice that any other country."

" as -- a law like that but. But the reaction. Government there. You know basically even more spineless on immigration and -- it is but wants -- wildly do standup -- you know. We gotta do something about this. And that all the same usual suspects there version of the ACLU whatever. Its the same arguments even more strongly. And so you know weren't bad situation here but I gotta say it's actually worse in other places."

" When you think of the worst. Most upside down cases -- the -- just make your blood boil -- around the country that you put together for this bookmark -- one -- two cases that come to mind."

" Well I mean did this sort of hard to at a -- but it. You know probably most recently the thing that really -- in. Micro causes and Francisco case from a few weeks ago where."

" Yeah I -- to tell your listeners about that given the background."

" Yet illegal immigrant murdered father and two sons and his two sons. And he wasn't just an illegal aliens and a lot of illegal aliens. Latimer young -- Morgan -- crimes and enough bad enough but this was an illegal alien in San Francisco who we've been repeatedly. Arrested by the police in San Francisco but who because of their Sanctuary City rules in other words there prohibition. Against. Working with the immigration service. It kept letting the guy goatee that's the most unbelievable thing and that candidate in New York this is a number of years ago a woman a naturalized citizen herself. Was like gang raped by four homeless men three of whom all of them were illegally in street whom had been arrested by the NYPD repeatedly. Nobody ever checked. And they were let go whatever you know for some reason it's kind of thing truly is outrageous and there's just -- excuse."

" You know mark does support that amazes me is that even though there are three dead people that wants him -- case. The city continues to defend their all criminal immigrants welcome policy -- I had gotten three people killed I'd be humiliated by -- that we can't do this anymore."

" Well you know be it it's really seems to be good for. Parts of the left and even some of the libertarian right supporting illegal immigrants trumps everything there's just nothing more important. Then supporting illegal immigration and San Francisco. They're now issuing municipal ID cards for illegal aliens. They're essentially telling them look. The Fed won't give you Social Security card the state California won't give you driver's license but will give you. And Francisco ID cards so that an illegal alien you'll be more comfortable in our Sanctuary City. It's just it's unbelievable but you know. Voters in San Francisco are -- needs bums out so that kind of get what they deserve."

" And sadly in Boston when it comes to Sanctuary City we have the same policy and I think this is a big deal market that they gets it gets back to -- on the premise of your book the new case against immigration which is of the problems us that we don't understand the damage we're doing. With -- open borders approached the city of Boston passed a resolution by from a group called welcoming Massachusetts says. Criminal immigrants have a quote civil and human right close quote to come live in Boston -- if you have a human right to something. I have no right as a citizen I've lost my right to regulate I have no right to say. These tax cut paid up policies and programs are not for you -- on the right to make you leave. You basically trumped my right as a citizen with this nebulous human right you cannot have a constitutional rule of law system. With that approach."

" Yeah I mean what it what you can't have as national sovereignty means what that says no I'm not that illegal -- obviously have human rights to be treated. Humanely as we enforce the law is no question about that but they don't have. A nobody has the right to enter somebody else's country I mean because if you posit that right what you're saying what the city of Boston appears to have said. Is at the borders of the United States are you legitimate in themselves regardless of how other enforced. And you know I'm not sure that -- that many voters in the hospital actually believed that not molest this is what the city has --"

" But they're so scared of being called racist and that's really what this has come down to is that a fear of the name calling that you are. Either for open borders and amnesty or your race is seen -- mark record you must hear that all the time. As you abdicate the idea that America should controls on borders and limit immigration both legal and illegal."

" Sure I mean obviously get better all the time would that much attention to it actually died Saturday here as much as I used to. And that but it is one of the reasons I tried to make the point in my book. Is that the problem -- immigration today not that the immigrants are somehow. Less desirable. Then I reassure Italians or whatever came -- years ago. We have changed in good ways and bad ways. But we've changed so that immigration is just not compatible with a modern society public art regardless -- to people who were coming."

" Why is our modern society compatible with that the immigration we saw say in 1900."

" All kinds of things changed for instance are we now live and we post industrial economy. Low skilled immigrants can still get work but to work. Cannot offer the same opportunities for upward mobility that they factory each of hundred years ago could have been a very different economy. Are we -- welfare state and -- just welfare but schools roads Social Security all kinds of stuff that depends on taxpayer. Contributions well. He can't take in. People who are going to be poor and require government subsidies because low skilled workers cannot support themselves. According to our norms without subsidies from the government immigrant or native. So what we're doing for taken in more people who were going to be subsidized by taxpayers."

" How -- interrupt right I would have tried to America's important -- talking to mark record in the case the new case it's immigration. Low skill. People whether they were born in Mexico where they -- Massachusetts cost society money the Heritage Foundation of the trip to study on this. And he said that the bottom line is they're going to contribute less than they are going to take out in which and Americans don't begrudge their fellow Americans that they say hey different opportunities different whatever you know. But the idea that we are going to intentionally add people who we know we're gonna cost us trillions of dollars over my lifetime not over the lifetime of the culture of in my lifetime. It's just patently insane."

" hand and an important point there's not this is not an issue of he'd been the immigrants' fault right. They're not worse than your -- pop from Sicily are just coming into a very different kind of place but. It's also there's they're not at fault we are not at fault there is no fault the problem is a mismatch. Between and nineteenth century immigration policy and a 20%."

" quite how do you defend your argument in the in your book that we should. Control drastically curtail not completely eliminate. Legal immigration people here that immediately. They start screaming Xena fold nativist you know America first her how can he say that we that this nation of immigrants should end all legal immigration."

" Well on the point is. When you'd think about illegal immigration we also sort of get to sleep we you know finally sort of agreed even Obama seems to have agreed at least for -- that we ought to be enforcing immigration. What is the law one of the rules that you're now proposing to enforce why you know why should we -- what should they be my point is. Because mass immigration. Any kind is incompatible with a modern society. We need to not -- zero immigration but zero based budgeting. In legal immigrants would start at zero. And then say okay let's look at which groups of people are so important to let it. For other reasons that we're going to let them in any -- despite the problems that immigration can create and that would be. Husbands wives and little kids of Americans citizens they've never been limited even in the twenties and shouldn't be as long at all you know above board. Handful of real Einstein. Ten or 15000 people in the most selective category that we have now -- the top people on the planet in their field. And then some number I would -- 50000 cause that's what that's been our target in the past. Humanitarian emigrant refugees and what had. That's still end up being something like 30350000. People a year that's not nothing but. It's something like 75% less than we have now and it's sort of the you reduce Sobel minimum. That as society like ours could take because there are going to be other reasons. That we're going to take they're going to want to take immigrants even though immigration. Creates tensions and problems first side."

" Mark Kerkorian -- gonna take jobs that Americans just won't do who's going to. You know deal large drugs and threatened police officers in -- and you know I have you know it's no good to be suitable number of children out of wedlock who's going to do this more."

" I'm sure will be plenty of American criminal -- are important to the web but there are also plenty of Americans and legal immigrants. Who. Are in the very occupations that in -- regular immigrants are working in now to. -- and now it's not this -- not to say that every jobs built by immigrants. Especially things like agricultural automatically be filled by Americans some of those jobs collection would be eliminated. And mechanized. This is something we've seen especially -- fruit and vegetables but not just in where. Men immigration actually slowed the process. Of man cannot mechanization and productivity improvements. And you know and limiting the foreign labor force. Talk about it people disappearing tomorrow we're talking about over a period of years shrinking it. Is going to cause farmers and others to start investing in mechanization start you know a developing. Or they actually developed but buying let us our testers for instance certain machine and look at it on the web companies develop. A latter part mr. it uses these streams of water to cut the -- so it was no metal involved it's kind of cool and it looks really cool so. Arm but why you gonna spend half a million dollar -- When you've got all these guys fight each other for your minimum wage jobs."

" Sure and then then again you have the question of 202000. People be working lettuce farms. Versus 200 Americans working in the robot factory that makes that when he -- that crop -- yet that the machine and those people are out of work because. There are a criminal immigrants who are doing that worked there is no net. Zero sum game here when it comes to allowing in. Labor or some other countries to compete with -- Americans."

" I mean what -- What economists have found is that there is a very small net gain when you look at the whole economy very small it's almost a margin of error but there's something there. But first -- word comes from. Is -- poor Americans right. And then spreading their lower though the amount of extra wages they're not being paid to the rest of the society as a moral question whether that even right. Not a big deal and -- that. -- of them very small benefited completely wiped out. By the extra social club and is no way to avoid that no mater aside I -- libertarians tell me well you're right. Immigrant -- too much welfare so let's just abolished welfare states like -- Acts exactly like a sophomore year dormitory -- and that's not real."

" I mean it's what I would do but this is not going to happen that no one's gonna make me you know emperor of America anytime soon at least not for next to two weeks. Or -- a marker -- in the new case against immigration is his book. Both legal and illegal. It's amazing to me marked here in Massachusetts we have -- circumstance where we may end the mandate. Union driven wages for all state jobs you have to pay union wage even at the company's prepared to do for the taxpayers. At half price because we -- we've got to get this money. To these union workers those same unions and turn around and support illegal immigration and oppose immigration law enforcement. So that other people can work for sought -- and wage. In sweatshops. And they don't CD an inherent in justice in that coconut near the blue state places like affair -- of the Massachusetts's. -- say on the one hand we want to use the force of government to make sure that this employer is paying union wages to nonunion workers. And then the same time turned a blind eye when that same employer has people working off the books."

" I don't know it mean it really does confound me and -- and build the most ironic thing. Is that. Organized labor. We invented the immigration limitation movement you know 100 more than a hundred years ago -- golfers who started the AFL. What an immigrant himself was one of the leaders of the movement. At the beginning of the last century to rein in immigration could be understood. How dangerous it was four. Not just American workers but even for yesterday's immigrants trying to improve their lot. And so you know what I really think -- happened is that. The proportion of Americans in labor unions has collapsed and it's very very small. -- labor organized labor especially at the top levels into the AFL -- headquarters for -- from the corner from my office here. Think pretty much decided Americans have given up on us. Then you know were given up on them we're just -- final we're gonna import somebody else to belong toward unions because. These you know lousy Americans. With the -- really it. It'll put it those words were meeting but that really is what drives they're thinking. And it's. You know it's unfortunate but it's the same kind of things yet the the level of the upper levels of business multinational corporations that. Explicitly. Say that they're not American companies even though when -- trouble you know the Marines are calling."

" Absolutely. But we're talking a -- in the new case for immigration I. Was laughing at them and that -- story mentions you about -- they identified the the Kremlin agree in the case this is the all the dedication they gave -- they call them a quote. Undocumented house painter. And my first question was what documents do you need to paint a house I didn't know that documentation is required for painting houses. And of course what they were trying to do was avoid saying the truth which is he was an illegal immigrant who happen to be taking your job from an American paper somewhere. It's hilarious to watch the media had this conversation. For what are some -- get any favorite euphemisms that you've run into this conversation. Exactly what is the media's agenda in promoting the idea that having secure borders is illegitimate and racist."

" The I'm the euphemism dialogue undocumented is one old one actually -- Carter's INS commissioner invented that a little help to deal is named it work didn't exist before that made it. It's -- they have fake -- So it should be falsely. That it's something. But I mean -- wipe out had people dreaming up euphemisms for amnesty you know few years ago they came up with. That's just past the citizenship legalization normalization regular patient phased in access or other track of the euphemisms so mean one of the challenges my business is to try to speak normal English and avoided. Essentially avoid this you know -- the that false terminology that the open borders people were trying to come up."

" Is the greatest danger to America in your opinion the economic issue or the cultural issue that is. Having the largest cultural. Population shift. In recorded history happening inside our borders."

" I think all of the -- that immigration has on our our modern society like ours but the problem they'll combine. To be a problem anymore it's it's economics. Its its cultural and -- citizenship issues but it also things like. Sovereignty. The fact is that mass immigration in modern conditions. Is a serious threat to our sovereignty because. Foreign governments can use modern technology to stay in touch with their former countrymen -- would mean in the way that they couldn't in the past but the bigger change. Is that our elites. Are unwilling. Two. Two essentially enforce our own norms so you end up with the Mexican government for instance. Becoming more and more active in domestic American politics and lobbying. State legislatures and lobbying. County boards of supervisors in the way that's. Flagrant violation of international law. And that would stop immediately the State Department just raise its hand and said that hey you know we're throw you out tomorrow on all of you guys cut this out they won't do it it's that. Loss of -- self confidence. In modern society that I think is the biggest. Danger we."

" Would America be a better place at -- politics and economy were more like Mexico's."

" All I don't know not our economy that's for sure maybe our immigration polyps. Well I would mean we adopted Mexico's it would because they have a much more stringent immigration -- effectively they go overboard await an idea. Would object to -- for instance in Mexico. Even naturalized. Citizens are barred from any government office even being fireman you can't you have to be a native to -- needed. The native born Mexican even to be firemen in much of Mexico. Let alone a congressman or judge or anything like that mean they -- way overboard but they're control measures. Their prohibition on. Foreign citizens participating in politics for instance. There are Mexico's very. Active. Enforcement of their visa rules. For instance you know for foreign. Workers -- foreign residents. That's actually something we would do well to get a look hard at and adopt some of their approach."

" What's the future answer to the argument this is the only argument I ever hear anymore mark because pretty. The other side at least were talking means they predict a CD yes your ride it is illegal yes you're right. Either got the backs -- doesn't matter there's nothing you can do about it he can't."

" Put them all on Abacha to line up buses from Los Angeles to Seattle to get rid of all of it is in other words yeah it is impossible task for us to have the secure borders and America that every other country in the world."

" Yet complete baloney I mean complete her medic security of our borders is never going to happen obviously. But dramatically better. Immigration enforcement is simply something we have to decide to do and the big question. Like you suggested -- the buses lining up to the Canadian border is what do we do but the illegal aliens were here right that's the one where people kind of say it was not and we can do well factories. The choice we face he's not. Between. Deporting them all on the line of school buses 200 miles long by Tuesday -- since we can't do that anyway. We have to legalize them -- that the false choice people yet. The real thing the only thing that can actually work. In the middle way which is what I call attrition through enforcement. We start enforcing the law not just -- on the border which you know can be useful but generally everywhere inside the country. Comprehensively enforce the law something we've never tried. And what you'll see. Is that instead of these illegal population growing each year it starts tree -- fact we have we've just done a report we're going to be releasing. I keep giving the actual numbers but the basic point of it is that. Over the past year the illegal alien population is actually declined by immeasurable amount and it's not. Just it can't economic slowdown that caught that enforcement has caused illegal immigrants to leave now. Probably surprise me say oh my -- law enforcement succeeded in forcing a law -- patient said it's supposedly surprise when that happens. So not a surprise."

" I can solve the entire illegal immigration promised much is it can't be solved as you mentioned that you go against some. Some immigration issues but give me 500 guys is due to take them off the border on the get gimme five and people Americans. And given the list of -- employers with no match letters from -- security. And have them visit 1 company every morning before lunch in one company afternoon after -- it's a thousand companies a day and you do that for sixty days. And tell them all here your fines will be back to Clinton speaks -- was going to happen these people are still here. And six days later be done because employers would stop hiring criminal immigrants and the Kremlin meant to say there's no jobs here on the go back and try to do something about Mike. -- economy in my home country and we -- we can all go home happy mark."

" And we're starting in a slower motion kind of way actually starting to see something like that happening for instance. The our government has Homeland Security Department has something called EU verify the web based system might sound better uses it in hiring. And you get to verify whether the person you're hiring is really they said they are there are allowed to work. Well more than 10% of all new hires are already going through the system. The federal government has announced that all federal contractors will have to start using this system. And you know. Big companies are starting to get the message Dunkin' Donuts for instance was one of the in this is not last year. They require all franchisees. Baskin Robbins and Dunkin' Donuts required all franchisees to use this system."

" And they early Dunkin' Donuts is early now front on this as soon as they solve assistance we will take it we will use it."

" Exactly and you know when a sign that says you know we use E verify you know when we verified somebody and two when you've been hired. Illegal aliens say well you know I'm not going to this place anymore they don't look for somewhere in the works somewhere else. The point is it's starting to work and even the idea of punishing employers who were real crux we're starting to see there was that big raid in Iowa. Few weeks ago that meat Packers play with all of these unbelievable conditions well. Though Wall Street Journal just I mean -- New York Times of the story someday that these arrests to uncover all kinds of people not willing to testify. The illegal aliens testify against her employers. For -- hiring sixteen year old know over time the whole thing I mean just unbelievable almost a parody. Of an abusive employer were going to now start scenes employer's going to jail not what we need starts to."

" And -- that's historian I was doing arm -- where when you start scratching the surface the story quickly goes from. A nice -- I just trying to calm me a little -- money no one's harmed by it to all the other criminal activity that is necessarily attendance. To criminal immigration is just no way around it. And I cannot recommend this book highly enough for people who care about immigration issue as I do -- Koreans the new case against immigration both legal and illegal market. Thanks much for joining us here on 9690 can connect. It."